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Talk:Council of Counts
I don't think it has ever been confirmed, but have we ever gotten an estimate as to what the composition of the Counts is party-wise? The Conservatives and Progressives are the two largest parties, and Dono in ACC states that the Progressives are the current majority. René in his first appearance mentions a dozen votes confirmed for himself and Sigur each. My best estimate is that the Progressives have somewhere around 15-20 consistent votes as a party, with the Conservatives probably around 10-20, leaving plenty of space in the middle. Aral's Centrist Coalition was probably the Progressives, the few Independents, whatever genuine Centrists existed, and a couple of the more moderable, negotiable or disaffected Conservatives. (Warning: Minor political rant ahead). See, it seems a bit off for Dono's and René's vote counts. Dono gets the Progressive votes as a bloc, along with the votes of Vorhalas and that grouping, plus whatever others he had managed to wrangle, and still only ends up with thirty-two. René later gets thirty-one votes, bare minimum majority, which makes sense from both a political (The Vorhalas contingent probably wouldn't have voted for René like they did for Dono, or they at least abstained) and storytelling perspective (Miles telling Dono and René earlier about the possibility of losing by a single vote, then Dono using his first vote for René's confirmation). A couple of the more conservative Counts are gone, and due to the Vorhalas vote for Dono probably a few more abstentions, but it still feels like they both should have gotten more support. Westbrook (talk) 05:53, March 30, 2013 (UTC) I admit I've wondered about that myself. One guess that I have is that the progressives and the conservatives are somewhat larger than your numbers (25-30 for progressives, 20-25 for conservatives) but that there are a fair number of bigoted progessives who could not be made to vote for Dono or Rene. That basically, the party discipline levels aren't very high in the parties because none of them had to rely on the aid of their party to get elected. I'll take other guesses perfectly willingly, though, since this is mostly conjecture on my part. 12:26, March 30, 2013 (UTC) That above was me... KarenHunt (talk) 12:32, March 30, 2013 (UTC) I've done that before-Forgot to log in or provide a signature, it's kind of annoying when it happens isn't it? Alright, let's use ACC as a guide, since it's the most detailed about the Council in terms of votes. There's 60 members total present at the vote, assuming full occupancy. Subtract two, for 58, because Vortugalov and Vormuir are missing. Dono gets thirty-two votes (Miles and René, Vorhalas, Vorpatril, Vorfolse & Vorkalloner, Counts Vorsmythe, Vorpinski, Vorvolynkin, and Vorinnis are all confirmed votes for Dono, which is only 10), so he needs another 22 for his total. René gets 31, so he loses a vote somewhere, though I'm guessing that he probably got a vote that Dono didn't. Anyways, my point about all this is that there's something a bit funky in the numbers. It's probably the most frustrating thing about LMB's writing, that she doesn't provide any extraneous detail. Westbrook (talk) 16:04, March 30, 2013 (UTC) And take another out because Gregor doesn't vote unless he has to, and we know he didn't vote in those two, so 57 for your total number of voters. Add in that I dunno what happened with Count Vortienne (the unfairly horrible example of a count); did a voting deputy show up, or is his slot empty also? Ah, well. I love her work anyway, and I do enjoy pulling tiny details out of it for the site. KarenHunt (talk) 16:20, March 30, 2013 (UTC) ps. I'd guess about 5-10% of my edits have ended up unattributed, one way or another. I would add: if you go back to _Barrayar_, there were more parties then. I doubt the People's Defense League had any countly representation, but they were a party. And there was a War Party that got destroyed by Ezar. In The Vor Game, we see that Greekies and French speakers and Russian speakers seem to have some level of party-ness to themselves as well (at least regarding who should be the next emperor if Gregor disappears). I think there are several small parties, and that Vorfolse isn't the only one-man party, as well. I think we might say also that Count Vorpatril is officially conservative, but even after looking at ACC and CVA I can't be sure what his official affiliation is. (Just what does "progressive by calculation" actually mean? Is that party membership or not?) So figure in the numbers that there might be somewhere between 10 and 20 oddballs? Knocks my numbers down somewhat in that case, to more like 20-25 "solid" progressives and 10-20 "solid" conservatives. KarenHunt (talk) 16:37, March 30, 2013 (UTC) I don't know if the People's Defense League would have been a party either. Actually, I think that Party might be the wrong term here entirely-Maybe faction is a better choice. As for Falco Vorpatril...."centrist by calculation" means he's a swing vote. Personally he's Conservative, and probably comes down on that side quite a lot, but he can be negotiated with. Given the circumstances, "horse-trading" is the appropriate metaphor. Vorpatril was probably a Centrist, or proved to be the swing vote in a couple of issues, or was proven to be reliable if he and his District were granted considerations/favors. See, that's what I've been figuring. Vorfolse gets mentioned because he's just that odd, but there's probably a number of political considerations in place. Assuming there's 20 Progressive and 10 Conservative Counts on hardlines, that's another 30 unaccounted for (Well, 29 given that Gregor is impartial), a good chunk of which are probably Centrists or independent. Although....Looking at what I posted about above, in Dono's vote count....If there are 25 Progressives (The top of the vote ceiling), discounting the three known Progressives (Miles, René and Count Vorsmythe), Dono gets 7 votes, which would equal thirty-two (Which takes the wind out of whatever other argument I might have made). Westbrook (talk) 17:56, March 30, 2013 (UTC) Sounds like we have the beginnings of an answer, in that case.... KarenHunt (talk) 18:49, March 30, 2013 (UTC) That actually reminds me: The position of voting deputy, which I was going to write an article on until I started thinking about it. Miles is his father's, but he seems to have the right to be part of the Council as his father's heir. But it's mentioned that Count Vortugalov has both a voting deputy and a son, so it seems to be a separate position. The question is then who can hold the voting deputy position aside from designated heirs-Relatives of the Count? Maybe even proles? The question about the voting deputy is mine.Westbrook (talk) 19:22, March 30, 2013 (UTC) hm... I did a bit of looking around the canon for deputies to get a clearer sense of it. Donna was an unofficial District Deputy for Pierre, for example. And Village Speakers have deputies, too. Thinking it over, I'd guess that a deputy might well be someone other than the heir if the heir isn't available (off-planet, too busy in the academy, or whatever), or if the heir is quite simply too young - 6-year-olds aren't suitable for voting... As for whether they'd be non-Vor? Probably not usually, but I wouldn't rule it out. For Vortienne, as a side-note, it was his son who was now old enough to stand in his place/sit at his desk. The Vortienne discussion does make me wonder - just when would they need a unanimous vote, anyway? So many topics that could go into new articles.... So much done and yet so much still to go! KarenHunt (talk) 19:46, March 30, 2013 (UTC) I've been thinking some more about the voting deputy, and I've come up with a possible solution. Since Barrayar was a feudal aristocracy, the High Vor Counts must have had vassals, lower Vor who served them in various roles. Given that, it seems quite likely that a Count would name one of his lesser vassal lords as his voting deputy. The Vorkosigans, for example, might have the Vorputins as their vassals, and so Lord Vorputin would have served as Count Aral's deputy in the Council before Miles took the role (This could also help explain why certain Vor hold the title of Lord as not just a courtesy-They were so designated by their liege lords). Westbrook (talk) 17:01, September 19, 2013 (UTC) And I'm an idiot for posting this just after I finished up, but it slipped my mind on the last post: KarenHunt, a unanimous vote is rare, but my best guess is that it would occur for the confirmation of an Imperial Heir. You'd want everyone to recognize that this kid was the son of the Emperor. as Crown Prince/Lord Vorbarra (At least I assume he would be called Lord Vorbarra), and would one day become Emperor himself; and for the most part, I guess that those votes would be a matter of fact. However.....that being said, since the next Emperor is going to be half-Komarran, I would assume that Gregor would insist on a unanimous vote as a matter of course, even though he might actually have to work to wrangle the Conservatives for a full sixty. Just a thought.Westbrook (talk) 17:05, September 19, 2013 (UTC) A good point. Presumably the vote that Aral was speaking of in Mirror Dance wasn't an Imperial Heir, but there are probably some similarly-important votes that happen from time to time (Imperium-wide changes to certain laws, perhaps?). Vassal-Vor does look like a possible answer for who the deputies are... KarenHunt (talk) 19:15, September 19, 2013 (UTC) My continuing insanity has led mecome up with what I think a reasonable estimation of the political alignments of the Council of Counts would look like, around the time of ''A Civil Campaign, ''with the names attached. Behold! Progressive Party (23): Vorkosigan, Vorbretten, Vorrutyer, Vortala, Vorsmythe; Vorob'yev, Vorreedi, Vorazarov, Vorhovis, Vorkeres; Vorvane, Vorventa, Vorsennett, Vororlov, Vorlaval; Vorlightly, Vorlakial, Vorellias, Vorjandreau, Vorharopulous; Vorloupulous, Vorlaisner, Vorville. Centrist Coalition (18): Vorpatril, Vorinnis, Vorvolk, Vorbohn, Voraronberg; Vordarian, Vorpinski, Vormercier, Vorsachs, Vorneski; Vortienne, Vorfarabaugh, Vorbataille, Vorchurkin, Vorduer; Vorgarin, Vorgustafson, Vorroarke. Conservative Party (16). Vormoncrief, Vorhalas, Vormuir, Vorkalloner, Vormurtos; Vortugalov, Vorvolynkin, Vortaine, Vortrifrani, Vorvayne; Vorparadijs, Vorwyn, Vordrozda, Vorgorov, Vortashpula; Vorkraft. Independents (2): Vorfolse, Voralleyne. Imperial (1): Vorbarra. Westbrook (talk) 03:22, September 24, 2014 (UTC) Seems not too far out. Though the including of non-canon names could confuse matters. The numbers look plausible, in any case.... Glad this is fun! KarenHunt (talk) 11:56, September 24, 2014 (UTC) This is actually a good point. '''NOTICE: '''The composition of the Council of Counts in canon is unknown. All names and party affiliations are of my own devising, ''unless specifically stated by canon. ''This concludes our public service announcement, have a pleasant day! Westbrook (talk) 15:26, October 17, 2014 (UTC)